Somewhat? It went all the way from shit hole to super wealthy in 30 years.
You’re ignoring the hundreds of millions of Ukrainian, Russian, Belarusian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Moldovan, Yugoslav, Hungarian… lives who went to shit after socialism was dissolved.
Soviet union did both a shit job at transitioning to capitalism, and has one of the most propaganda shaped societies in the world. Ukraine also struggles with fucking war with Russia right now.
There’s a research around communism nostalgia, and in countries that did transformation correctly, it isn’t really a thing.
I just spat my coffee at screen. Have you even read about holdomor?
If you had sister nation with war crime list like this you wouldn’t need enemies. You’d have all the war crimes and abuse in great abundance for life.
Part of the population collapse is migration. Millions of Ukrainians traveled to work in Poland even before the war. I imagine it was even bigger number if you count all other migration destinations.
which happened unintentionally as a consequence of the policy of rapid collectivization and reindustrialization.
So you claim, that because they starved entire country worth of people “accidentaly” so it’s okay? What kind of sick fuck morality is this?
This policy unambiguously is what enabled the Soviets to defeat Nazism (no tanks and rifles = extermination) and save all Slavic peoples (including you) from being genocided by Germany
Jeus no. Nazis occupied both territories of Poland and Ukraine during ww2, and they successfully genocided jews who lived there. If they wanted to genocide slavs too, they would.
You sound as if famine that happened before war was somehow necessary part of industrializaton.
Is the communism that you voted out the Marxist-Leninist, “people’s revolution turned authoritarian state” kind? I’d get rid of that shit, too.
There are lots of other stands of anti-capitalism (eg, democratic socialism, anarchism) that are probably worth exploring. Even if we stick with capitalism but soften it with socialist policies, that’s still way better than the minimally regulated capitalism we have in the US.
Also cooperatives exists, and in many ways are more successful than their traditional capitalistic counterparts, providing a system to help “reconcile egoistic actors” by rewarding cooperation and solidarity rather than competition and utility maximization.
I listened to the discussion so far. The proposed system is still capitalism, but with some tweaks. IMO rather clumsy tweaks since there’s no clear definition what common good even is.
And instead of some point system, you can just collect taxes to finance welfare for citizens, which is exactly how EU economies work. In most cases taxation is progressive so it’s not like rich CEOs aren’t paying exponentially more than avg citizen.
In the US, progressive taxation gets called communism, lol.
But yeah. That’s kinda what I meant with my original comment. The more progressive EU economies are, to my understanding anyway, outcomes from the more reformist socialist traditions - using the existing democratic government to round off the excesses of unregulated capitalism. And I would take that any day of the week.
Fascism has been voted in unfair elections, and now refuses to be voted out, turns out “fair” and “elections” are a political abstraction that hides the fundamental class antagonisms, god somebody should look into this
Wait wait wait. When Trump lost against Biden he claimed unfair elections. Once Trump won against Kamala Harris you claim unfair elections? That’s actually hilarious.
Lol. This is what I meant by “political abstractions.” I’m talking about actual things in the world, you’re talking about these ideas like a middle schooler, and so the only position you can even imagine, is the opposite of your baby ideas. But the opposite of abstract and idealist, is practical and specific. You have ideas, and I have experience.
I’m not talking about Trump and Harris. Also, did you just accuse the USA president of being a fascist? I’m pretty sure people are being put in camps for that, better be careful with that incendiary rhetoric, lol.
Both parties are corrupt and complicit.
First past the post is totally rigged for the two party system, both parties captured by elites and don’t represent regular people
USA electoral system makes sure many voters cant vote. one of the two major political parties (Republicans) actively campaign on making it harder for people to vote.
Our culture, which is controlled by our media, is objectively depoliticizing unless you want to identify with one of two political perspectives that oppose each other but don’t represent people or even reality most of the time.
States, and all elections are handled on the state level, are deeply gerrymandered. In my state, on 2 separate occasions, citizens voted for redistricting in our state and ratified it into our constitution. Both times, the constitutional mandate was ignored. The third time citizens tried to pass another constitutional amendment to un fuck our districts, the Republican controlled board of elections changed the wording of the actual amendment as it would appear on peoples voting forms and made it appear like voting for redistricting was actually making elections less democratic.
In 2016 and 2020, a popular left candidate was dequalified from running by the Democrats, through maneuvering and electoral manipulation. The problem isn’t just with Republicans.
Other structures of American politics are undemocratic and corrupt, such as the Senate, lobbyism, the two party system, the incredible influence foreign governments have on our policy, not to mention corporations, justice system illegally corrupted by business at the highest levels, plans like project 2025 being carried out despite them being extremely unpopular and obviously made to hurt people. On and on.
Considering communism was voted out in fair elections here and noone wants it back, your argument is invalid.
Sorry about your capitalism brainwashing.
Sorry for moving from utter poverty to powerhouse economy rivaling UK. That wasn’t the plan.
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Somewhat? It went all the way from shit hole to super wealthy in 30 years.
Soviet union did both a shit job at transitioning to capitalism, and has one of the most propaganda shaped societies in the world. Ukraine also struggles with fucking war with Russia right now.
There’s a research around communism nostalgia, and in countries that did transformation correctly, it isn’t really a thing.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/10/15/key-takeaways-public-opinion-europe-30-years-after-fall-of-communism/
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Technically the “current war” started in like 2016 with Crimea being conquered by hyper aggressive military expansionist dictatorship: Russia.
I just spat my coffee at screen. Have you even read about holdomor?
If you had sister nation with war crime list like this you wouldn’t need enemies. You’d have all the war crimes and abuse in great abundance for life.
Part of the population collapse is migration. Millions of Ukrainians traveled to work in Poland even before the war. I imagine it was even bigger number if you count all other migration destinations.
deleted by creator
So you claim, that because they starved entire country worth of people “accidentaly” so it’s okay? What kind of sick fuck morality is this?
Jeus no. Nazis occupied both territories of Poland and Ukraine during ww2, and they successfully genocided jews who lived there. If they wanted to genocide slavs too, they would.
You sound as if famine that happened before war was somehow necessary part of industrializaton.
Is the communism that you voted out the Marxist-Leninist, “people’s revolution turned authoritarian state” kind? I’d get rid of that shit, too.
There are lots of other stands of anti-capitalism (eg, democratic socialism, anarchism) that are probably worth exploring. Even if we stick with capitalism but soften it with socialist policies, that’s still way better than the minimally regulated capitalism we have in the US.
Haven’t seen any proposal that would reconcile incentives of large number of egoistic actors. This sort of thing simply doesn’t exist.
@BlackLaZoR @vonbaronhans you might be egoistic, but don’t assume people broadly to be so
The economy for the common good is one.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/386481877_Economy_for_the_common_good
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_for_the_Common_Good
Discussion about 16 minutes in. https://sceneonradio.org/s5-e11-change-everything/
Also cooperatives exists, and in many ways are more successful than their traditional capitalistic counterparts, providing a system to help “reconcile egoistic actors” by rewarding cooperation and solidarity rather than competition and utility maximization.
I listened to the discussion so far. The proposed system is still capitalism, but with some tweaks. IMO rather clumsy tweaks since there’s no clear definition what common good even is.
And instead of some point system, you can just collect taxes to finance welfare for citizens, which is exactly how EU economies work. In most cases taxation is progressive so it’s not like rich CEOs aren’t paying exponentially more than avg citizen.
In the US, progressive taxation gets called communism, lol.
But yeah. That’s kinda what I meant with my original comment. The more progressive EU economies are, to my understanding anyway, outcomes from the more reformist socialist traditions - using the existing democratic government to round off the excesses of unregulated capitalism. And I would take that any day of the week.
Fascism has been voted in unfair elections, and now refuses to be voted out, turns out “fair” and “elections” are a political abstraction that hides the fundamental class antagonisms, god somebody should look into this
Wait wait wait. When Trump lost against Biden he claimed unfair elections. Once Trump won against Kamala Harris you claim unfair elections? That’s actually hilarious.
Lol. This is what I meant by “political abstractions.” I’m talking about actual things in the world, you’re talking about these ideas like a middle schooler, and so the only position you can even imagine, is the opposite of your baby ideas. But the opposite of abstract and idealist, is practical and specific. You have ideas, and I have experience.
I’m not talking about Trump and Harris. Also, did you just accuse the USA president of being a fascist? I’m pretty sure people are being put in camps for that, better be careful with that incendiary rhetoric, lol.
Both parties are corrupt and complicit.
First past the post is totally rigged for the two party system, both parties captured by elites and don’t represent regular people
USA electoral system makes sure many voters cant vote. one of the two major political parties (Republicans) actively campaign on making it harder for people to vote.
Our culture, which is controlled by our media, is objectively depoliticizing unless you want to identify with one of two political perspectives that oppose each other but don’t represent people or even reality most of the time.
States, and all elections are handled on the state level, are deeply gerrymandered. In my state, on 2 separate occasions, citizens voted for redistricting in our state and ratified it into our constitution. Both times, the constitutional mandate was ignored. The third time citizens tried to pass another constitutional amendment to un fuck our districts, the Republican controlled board of elections changed the wording of the actual amendment as it would appear on peoples voting forms and made it appear like voting for redistricting was actually making elections less democratic.
In 2016 and 2020, a popular left candidate was dequalified from running by the Democrats, through maneuvering and electoral manipulation. The problem isn’t just with Republicans.
Other structures of American politics are undemocratic and corrupt, such as the Senate, lobbyism, the two party system, the incredible influence foreign governments have on our policy, not to mention corporations, justice system illegally corrupted by business at the highest levels, plans like project 2025 being carried out despite them being extremely unpopular and obviously made to hurt people. On and on.
You’re not serious.