It’s part of our culture. It dates back to when America was new. Plantation owners wanted to pretend we had a rich and powerful economy and history and culture. They made everything pristine and gaudy and exp wove looking but there was no substance. Look at the architectural decisions made in plantation houses and how the elements are still used in homes today.
We pretend we are better than we really are.
I’m guessing not admitting your finances are shit is pretty universal, no need to pick on 'Murica.
There is some truth to what you’re saying but the USA are special about it. It’s like, tbey try to (badly).act as if they had more than enough money but it’s obvious they’re struggling badly. Like a functional addict thinking he’s hiding it but everyone knows and there’s a shared social discomfort in the charade
In debt doesn’t mean broke. People with a mortgage that they are easily paying off have debt. Millionaires and billionaires have millions and billions in debt. Debt itself isn’t bad. Debt can be good.
The average American is living paycheck to paycheck with bad, high interest debt and killer monthly minimums. Many people roll their underwater car loan into a new underwater car loan. The housing market is taking a turn.
People are mostly broke.
Based on statistical average, or based on your imagination?
I get that we say this culturally, and it’s common. But it’s not that simple.
The point is that being in debt isn’t the same as being broke and living paycheque to paycheque. Rich people have note debt than broke people because banks etc are far more willing to give rich people debt since they can actually pay it back.
Just a small correction there: debt can never be good.
But debt can be necessary, but that is only because some financial institutions have made it so, because many of them make their money from peoples debt.
So they spread the myth that debt is good, despite the fact that the world would be a far better place without debt.
No, debt can be good. If you’re making more money from an asset than the interest on the loan used to buy that asset, it’s good debt.
Good for who?
For the person holding the debt.
Because we want to spend our end of days in comfort
Broke, poor, and in debt are three different things.
Broke just means no cash on hand. You can have tons of cash flow and assets but at the moment you are lacking liquidity to pay cash for things. You may or may not have debt. You might have just blown all your cash on a big purchase.
Poor means you have little and earn little and can do little. Debt is often a factor here but you can be poor and not in debt.
People in debt owe money. They might not be struggling at all. Sometimes rich people borrow money because it costs them less than the interest they receive on the cash they have. Or it could be the opposite, it could be crippling every aspect of their lives.
Americans carry a lot of debt on average. My only debit is my mortgage plus the last two weeks of credit card spending. I pay off my card in full every month. I only use the credit card because it offers purchase protection and I get rewards. Not all debt is bad debt, but a lot of it is.
While I have no debts, sometimes my bank account is hovering at a $200. I hate the insecurity it gives me.
That’s called Modern Monetary Theory. It’s a fun game until the underlying physics of our little civilizational project fails, that is to say the energy return on pumping oil out of the ground.
Stupidity and the art of flexing.
I’ve dealt with people that made it to adulthood not really understanding that if they have cash in their pocket, but more debt than that, they don’t really have money available to spend on frivolous things. Some of them are my friends.
They will be “broke” 5 days of the week, but spend freely from when then cash their paycheck (or get that next payday loan!) until all they have is change.
But, I’ve been lucky. I got a degree without taking on debt AND the worst CC hole I had to dig myself out of was not even to the limit of one card. I think most people have to ignore student or medical or other debt just to function…
who’s pretending they aren’t broke?
Many US-americans.
I know that I’m broke and I’ll be working until I either go senile or die. It took me too long to start figuring things out.
And that you were never taught better was intentional.
Debt, used properly, makes you wealthy. Every billionaire you know has debt because of the advantages.
I grew up middle class. To afford my prestigeous university, I took out debt (before grant only financial aid). The value of my education allowed me to earn a higher salary to pay it off in two years. I kept earning that salary and more after the debt was paid. It had a high present value.
I bought my latest house four years ago. Mortgage rates were so low I decided to finance part of it at 2% even though I had the cash. I now earn 4.5% in money markets. After taxes, I earn 0.72% every year not to pay off my mortgage. With $350,000 remaining, this is an extra $2,500/year right now.
I shop with credit cards that give me 2-5% back on purchases. I pay off my balance every month and have never paid one penny in interest or penalties in over a decade. My credit cards therefore pay ~$1,500/year tax free.
Larry Ellison likes controlling Oracle and being a billionaire. Rather than selling stock of Oracle to fund his lifestyle, he instead borrows against the value of the stock. As Oracle appreciated, he got to keep the gains he doesn’t trigger capital gains taxes.
Most Americans do live paycheck to paycheck. They live at the ragged edge of their means and remain ignorant of finance. However, this is a global phenomenon. The difference is that much of the United States tax code is set up to benefit the wealthy. Adopt their habits and your wealth starts to snowball.
I shop with credit cards that give me 2-5% back on purchases. I pay off my balance every month and have never paid one penny in interest or penalties in over a decade. My credit cards therefore pay ~$1,500/year tax free.
I don’t really have anything to add as this is pretty much all spot on to how the wealthy live, but on this one I’d like to point out that you’re not actually making money - you’re just taking back part of the money that you already paid. That money isn’t paid by the credit card companies, they’d never be dumb enough to leave money on the table like that. They pay it through increased transaction fees for the businesses, who eat the extra cost through higher prices. There are states that do something similar with their recycling programs. They give you 5 cents per bottle you recycle at the center, but you paid a 5 cent bottle deposit when you bought them at the store. You’re not making any money, or even making back some of what you paid the store. You’re just getting your deposit back.
Maybe you somehow reduce your taxes by cycling that money through a cash back program? I’m not well versed on finances, so I won’t even try to theorize on that, but it certainly isn’t free money or something.
Yes, the credit card spending is technically a rebate, hence why it is tax free. However, I am going to purchase an identical basket of goods and services whether or not I use credit, so it is functionally identical.
Larry Ellison likes controlling Oracle and being a billionaire. Rather than selling stock of Oracle to fund his lifestyle, he instead borrows against the value of the stock. As Oracle appreciated, he got to keep the gains he doesn’t trigger capital gains taxes.
I never really understood this. He still has to pay the loan, and he isn’t doing that with his symbolic $1/year salary. What part am I missing?
Debt interest below investment yield means infinite money.
You’re missing the taxes they aren’t paying on the yield of the investment. That’s only taxed when sold. So if you borrow against investments tied up in the market then it never triggers the tax.
Theoretically their estate would get taxed on the value resulting in a nice cascade of tax triggers but they’re doing away with that asap.
You need to pay that loan with cash, right? I get that your assets secure the loan, but without another source of cash, how you pay back the loan and not sell your assets?
Just keep borrowing and pay with that. Debt interest lower than yield.
Can you provide an example? I’m not sure I get how that works out in their favor. In my view, paying debt with more debt is a terrible mistake and will get you in financial trouble. But I get that they have far more assets than I do. I just don’t quite see where it doesn’t go wrong.
Do they not have to pay the principle?
Other reply was good.
To answer your question, you can borrow against equity tied up in assets without down payment. For example, if you have a house you can borrow against the value less any mortgage up to some percent of the total value. In my situation i can borrow up to 60% of the value of a house.
Down payments are for purchasing assets where the purchased asset will act as collateral. The idea is that the bank walks away with something if you immediately fail to pay on debts.
Stocks can act as equity assets in a similar way as the house. Equity loans generally have relatively low interest.
As a side note, this is all bullshit, interest is evil, and the system should be burnt to the ground and billionaires rotisseried over the coals for dinner.
I borrow $1000, assuring you I can pay you back because I have $5000 worth of stock.
A few years later, I borrow $5000, assuring you I can pay you back because I have $10000 worth of stock (it’s not more stock, it’s just worth more now). I use that $5000 to pay off the $1000 debt plus interest, and then have some left over.
Few years later, I borrow $10000, assuring you I can pay you back because I have $50,000 worth of stock. I use that $10000 to pay off the $5000 debt plus interest and then have some leftover.
Repeat as necessary. The bank does eventually get their money (when you die or are for some reason forced to sell, paying off the debt with cash rather than promises). To the bank this is an investment. To you, it’s a way to get cash without having to actually sell your stocks, avoiding taxes, and letting your value continue to skyrocket.
Okay. Thanks. That makes sense.
I guess the cycle continues if you will the stock to your children. So it could be decades until anyone pays taxes.
And if the stock tanks, then I guess you declare bankruptcy.
What’s important is how much you can buy, not how much money you have.
I don’t know anyone pretending they aren’t broke in America…I know a lot of good people struggling paycheck to paycheck and that’s it. I love how Lemmy has become this echo chamber of hate for Americans when y’all are just as fucked in Europe and other countries too with so many similar or different issues. Imagine a little compassion for all people rather than assuming “America bad because America”. Just so incredibly sad and stupid to see how dumb so many people are… that kind of thought process is exactly the same type of people that vote for trump that have this same attitude about “insert race or country here”. Y’all need a reality check, yesterday…
I’m American
when y’all are just as fucked in Europe
I’m sorry, is this some joke I’m too publicly health insured and 6 weeks of paid holidays by law and so on to understand?
Are you pretending that no one is broke in countries that have mandatory paid leave and “free” public health systems? As someone who lives in one of those countries myself I can, with 100% certainty, say you’re incredibly wrong.
In previous centuries with colonialism Europe was the cause of much disgrace in the world.
After WWII with neo colonialism it was either us or ussr imposing their way of life and values over the media, but overly exploiting resources and weakening both local economy and healthy politicians and putting dictators everywhere.
us bad fame still didn’t catch up with all the bad stuff they did and are still doing.
Debt is not a broke person thing. Most people you’d consider to be well off have debt.
Americans dont feel broke because they have extremely strong purchasing power.
