Apparently we do, and there are potentially millions of dollars in sports, and while fairness and equality may not be important to you they are to me, and trans people I feel violate that. I also believe in a sanctity of sports and place a high value on competition where we all agree on and can follow rules while doing something physical and having fun, I believe learning those skills are central to society.

Again are you seriously suggesting we what? Merge the WNBA with the NBA? There would be no women players that could field against the male athletes dude, that’s the entire point.

Again, Venus and Serena the GOATed all time tennis players doubted they could compete in the top 1000 if the women’s league were merged with the men’s. Is that what you want? Women to get absolutely dominated by men all the time in sports? I can say it’d be huge for right winged men’s mental health and feeling superior I guess if nothing else.

You’re reading the conclusions of the researchers and ignoring the actual numbers, which again, for the very last time actually do support a physical difference on muscle, and at this point you’ve descended to ad hominem and we’ll agree to disagree.

Dude separation of men and women’s events goes back to ancient Greece. The first olympics thousands of years ago was segregated by sex. Maybe Christo-fascists framed it that way but honestly it’s always been because pound for pound a woman just doesn’t compete with a man and it’s inherently not fair.

And yes seriously, I didn’t want to have a relationship with a trans person and multiple people labeled me as a transphobe over it which is totally not the case. I was friends with her before and after she transitioned and it was… weird for me and something I didn’t want. That to me was particularly insane, like, what more do you want from me?

I’m glad you at least have a sane and middle of the road thinking, and can see that there are at least levels to support.

Again, hotly debated topic and even by their own results there ARE differences. Lean muscle mass IS greater in trans female athletes. Doping is easier to conceal in trans male athletes.

And I don’t know what should be done about sports, but that’s because I’m not a sports medicine expert and clearly, neither are you. It’s great that you really like sports and value the integrity of the field or whatever, but your feelings about your hobby should have no bearing on wider social policy.

Bold assumption that I didn’t go to college and don’t have a bachelors in Exercise Science. I mean all I’ve ever wanted to do in life is train athletes lol.

But hey you can believe what you want and I’ll certainly continue believing what I do. I think your problem is largely that most sports at the moment, the sports medicine experts ARE advocating against trans athlete participation. The opinions of the researchers and scientists in those studies concluded that lean muscle mass doesn’t result in a competitive advantage. That is totally NOT the consensus of the field at large, and why people educated on the subject like myself are leery of the political impact on studies like this. Lean muscle mass as percentage of body weight remains the best predictor of physical ability. That’s not even addressing musculo-skeletal differences which deals with how muscle attaches to the skeleton or how muscle structurally forms, which IS different between the sexes, and unfortunately, presently HRT doesn’t affect, those differences persist regardless of puberty blockers present in prepubescence. So… tech has to get better to transition more completely.

Your own study that you just linked acknowledges a higher lean mass difference WHICH MEANS THEY HAVE MORE MUSCLE. The study says this doesn’t ‘necessarily automatically translate to greater athletic ability’ which personally I think is horseshit.

Nor does it address differences in musculo-skeletal mass. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10641525/

It is absolute horseshit you think the science is squarely in your corner on this, because it most DEFINITELY isn’t.

What part of what I said above disagrees with you that this should be between a trans person and their doctor? That’s literally what I said. Unless consensus has changed post-puberty HRT is how they do things, blockers are used until puberty stops. There are advocates out there who are saying give the HRT and blockers OTC not understanding you can’t take both, and think that such a thing should be OTC and at the child’s decision alone which is INSANE.

Personally don’t plan on shutting up especially when you still haven’t addressed how you keep someone undergoing hormone treatments from beating doping in sports too. There are definitely issues with cheating already with the cis crowd, and it is actually much much easier for someone who’s taking hormones already to dope. Their levels can drop back down quicker during testing making it harder to detect cheating and steroid use.

Also it’s patently ridiculous to merge women’s and men’s leagues as Venus and Serena showed, and what my personal anecdote was about. Women can’t compete on the same level as men physically with sports. It’s ridiculous that Chess is separated by men and women’s leagues sure. But anything physical? You’re joking right? Or you’ve never done sports?

Lol you seriously just don’t get it do you.

Google about the time Serena and Venus Williams said they could beat any man outside the top 200. Remember they were ranked number 1 in women’s tennis and were absolutely crushing the women’s league back in 1998 when this happened.

They played a man who was number 203 and he absolutely smoked both of them. If you watch it you can tell he’s not even trying, something the Williams sisters even acknowledged in the interviews after. After that match, the Williams sisters, the best 2 players in women’s tennis went on record and said if they had to compete in the men’s league they didn’t even think they’d be able to place, and the level of competitive difference was ‘insane’. That’s straight from the mouths of the 2 best women in the world at their sport, and to this day the GOATed 2 competitors of their sport.

I’ve been involved in martial arts for almost 35 years now. I’ve been instructing for almost 20 of those years. I was professionally competitive back in the Pride days. I’ve trained with some of the best women fighters in the world, and none of them could beat me, and when I did I wasn’t even competitive or ranked. I’d even concede the fact that several of those women’s technique and form was better than mine. But the strength and speed differences are too great to be ignored. In the same weight class it’s not even competitive. I’ve given up 2 whole weight classes to women in practice before and it’s still not competitive. I can easily overpower women who are trained fighters who have almost 80lbs on me. The differences between a biological man and woman are insane.

Which brings me to the trans people in sports debate. I don’t think it’s fair at all for trans people to compete. A biological woman can be disqualified permanently for competing in virtually any league if it’s found she’s taken testosterone even once. Because testosterone creates PERMANENT changes to musculoskeletal mass. No amount of HRT can undo the differences in muscle mass and bone density that a person gets when he goes through puberty as a male. And as far as women who transition to men… they’re taking testosterone supplimentally and can too easily mask doping methods behind their HRT treatments. It’s far too easy for trans men athletes to cheat.

There are some crazy people out there who are saying that HRT should be over the counter and should be available to children because of this. Which is insane. First, I wouldn’t trust any life long decision I’dve ever made until I was around 22, and that might be being generous in retrospect. Second HRT has some serious side effects and should be an absolute last resort. I still think the attempt should be made to try and make someone comfortable in their own body and definitely need some psych approval before making such a life altering decision. And finally… you need to be out of puberty before you start playing around with major hormones like that. The teenage years are crazy enough with all that and you really want to pile on more? Why not force feed them LSD while you’re at it CIA style? I think it might be less mentally damaging.

Final note and it’s more a vent than anything. A trans supporter seriously told me that I’m transphobic because I said I wouldn’t date a trans person as I’d be uncomfortable with that. They took this to mean that I didn’t accept them as a woman fully, which on reflection is kinda true, on a sexual attraction level it would be hard for me to resolve mentally that this person who is now definitely a woman wasn’t once a man. I think it’s equally ridiculous that my sexual preferences can be dictated by others and if I’m uncomfortable with intimacy of that nature that somehow makes me a bigot, especially when I’ve gone out of my way to accommodate and support the trans community. I’ve always supported the gay community, even back in the 90s and early 2000s living in an area where… you just didn’t in those days. When a guy came out in our conservative school back in the day, I literally defended him, and went to bat at 5 to 1 odds. And no gay guy ever said I had to be on board with dating one of them to support the community.

And yes, despite being against trans people competing in sports and being uncomfortable with dating a trans person, I still consider myself to be a supporter of the community. I believe everyone has a right to be happy, and if that’s what it takes, go for it. And push comes to shove you’d better bet I’ll do what I can to protect a trans person should they need it, as I would stand up for any victim to any bully. Hopefully I’m not just branded ‘transphobic’ and seen as an enemy when I disagree with you on a few points.

Yes, thats the point. They don’t actually follow the filth in the Bible. But that filth is still there and plenty do. If you’re a “moderate” Christian you just serve to perpetuate this bullshit and you stand beside the fundamentalists of your shitstain religion.

If you actually are the kind of scum who calls themselves Christian, actually follow the Bible. Sell your children as sex slaves, kill unbelievers and witches, don’t get tattoos, don’t wear clothes of mixed fibers or eat shellfish, stone a pregnant woman to death if she’s unmarried or an adulterer. This is what your fucking Bible says, go be the kind of scum that makes a good Christian. All while worshiping the creator of all evil (Psalms).

Fuck yourself, Christians are straight up evil. But so is all religion. The greatest evil in the world is ignorance and religion is the purest expression of willful ignorance humanity has to offer.

Kinda revealing of our country right? I prefer our old motto on money. E Pluribus Unum was what it originally said which is Latin for out of many, one. Benjamin Franklin then designed a coin that was “mind your business”, and another that said “we are one”. Now it’s “in god we trust” which as an anti-theist I’ve gotta say, doesn’t fit me at all.

Know how McD’s they have both a real egg vs the flat yellow thin precooked one? In a blind taste test most people prefer the flat one because it’s less ‘eggy’. I mean strong spices, most people prefer blandness, at least in the US.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pledge-allegiance-created-sell-flags/

Flags and magazines lol

Missed the pronouns, I guess my bad for misgendering. I’m a child of the 90s, male, female, or whatever spectrum you fall on, it’s still largely dude and bro in my vernacular. I’ll still support you playing sports, and whatever else it is you crazy kids do that you think will make you happy. Just don’t expect me to personally participate or pretend to give a shit about pronouns.

Damn, I was just starting to really work the shaft.

I never said they invented greeting cards. I said they normalized giving them on a variety of holidays that previously were less commonplace for cards. For example the person that created Mother’s day fucking HATED Hallmark.

You’re certainly a riveting conversationalist. I’ll leave you with this. How influential on the design of our very cities has the auto industry and oil industry been? Are our cities designed around using as little fuel as possible, or the exact opposite?

He’s talking positively about major corporations, are you really surprised at the spelling and grammar?

The trainwreck that is the Trump administration becomes easier if you view it as what it is, the fall of America.

Unless we all think that Wall Street’s open fraud, a soaring national debt, and soaring inflation are sustainable lol. Maybe we’ll get the nuclear apocalypse we all so deserve.

Oh there’s definitely more. Do you want me to regale you with the tale of how the Red suited Santa Coke invented came to be? Or do you want to keep thinking a holiday about giving gifts wasn’t invented by corporations? How about how giving pre-made cards on a variety of holidays became to be a thing because of Hallmark?

That’s not it at all. Look, I know it’s easy to place the blame on those cheese eating surrender monkeys, but this one is on human nature.

Multiple scientific studies done by the big food corps have shown, consistently, that the majority of people in the world prefer blander food.

You may not personally, but multiple double blind studies have shown that the average Joe prefers blandness, and bland unspiced food tends to sell better than the opposite.

Saying the Pledge of Allegiance during school was a tradition that was invented by a company which made American flags, they did it as a sales tactic.

America doesn’t really have a culture it just has capitalism.